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diff --git a/tickets/20bdae3913de49d4afd544d36996ce4b/Maildir/new/1456001176.M722325P8737Q17.hrun b/tickets/20bdae3913de49d4afd544d36996ce4b/Maildir/new/1456001176.M722325P8737Q17.hrun
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@@ -0,0 +1,157 @@
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+ Tue, 22 Dec 2015 06:00:52 -0800 (PST)
+Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:00:51 -0500
+From: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+To: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+Message-ID: <20151222140051.GB11335@megas.khq.kitware.com>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+Cc: obnam-dev@obnam.org
+Subject: Re: [PATCH] backup: take an inhibitor lock if possible
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+
+On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 17:59:32 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:17:06AM -0500, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 16:33:18 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> > > That just indicates to me that you should write a simpler program,
+> > > perhaps as a wrapper around systemd-inhibit. :)
+> > 
+> > Would this at least be acceptable to include in obnam? obnam-inhibit? It
+> > seems silly to have everyone rewrite this thing when it is such an
+> > important behavior.
+> 
+> I'd rather it was a separate, generic utility than something named so
+> people think it's related to Obnam, sorry. I'd be happy to add
+> pointers to it to Obnam documentation, and have the Obnam Debian
+> packaging suggest it.
+
+Wait, so let me get this straight:
+
+  - adding it to obnam is too specific;
+  - using systemd-inhibit is too generic (needs enough parameters that
+    manually typing it is annoying);
+  - so making something *like* obnam-inhibit is the right way;
+  - but instead of having obnam provide such a thing, everyone has to
+    make their own?
+
+Making a full-blown repo for a single script with the content of:
+
+    #!/bin/sh
+    exec systemd-inhibit --who=obnam --why="running a backup" obnam "$@"
+
+seems a little absurd to me.
+
+> There are other forms of composability than pipes. For example, the
+> flock(1) utility, which creates a lock file while it runs a command,
+> and automatically releases it even if it crashes. That's the same
+> pattern as I suggest for the inhibition utility.
+> 
+> That said, I expect Obnam to start reading from stdin some day. And
+> produce output to stdout. Both for using in pipelines. Examples:
+> 
+> * Have Obnam read the list of files to back up from stdin, fed by,
+>   say, find(1).
+> 
+> * Have "obnam export-repository" produce a representation of a backup
+>   repository that is independent of the backup storage format, and
+>   "obnam import-repository" read such a representation to create a new
+>   repository. This would be quite useful for repository conversion.
+
+Well, this one isn't "backup", and for the first one, I'd want the
+inhibitor lock as well. And the pipe-in-find is probably better as
+--files-from=- (plus the associated -0 flag for using null-delimited
+filenames) since a flag to even look at stdin would probably be needed
+*anyways*.
+
+--Ben
+
+_______________________________________________
+obnam-dev mailing list
+obnam-dev@obnam.org
+http://listmaster.pepperfish.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/obnam-dev-obnam.org
diff --git a/tickets/20bdae3913de49d4afd544d36996ce4b/Maildir/new/1456001178.M44641P8737Q19.hrun b/tickets/20bdae3913de49d4afd544d36996ce4b/Maildir/new/1456001178.M44641P8737Q19.hrun
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..e260e3e
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+++ b/tickets/20bdae3913de49d4afd544d36996ce4b/Maildir/new/1456001178.M44641P8737Q19.hrun
@@ -0,0 +1,118 @@
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+Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:22:24 -0500
+From: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+To: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+Message-ID: <20151221152224.GA21839@megas.khq.kitware.com>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+Subject: Re: [PATCH] backup: take an inhibitor lock if possible
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+
+On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 15:16:33 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable adding this kind of code to
+> Obnam. I think it'd be better off as a separate utility, kind of like
+> the flock utility. It could be used like this:
+> 
+>     inhibit-suspend obnam backup
+> 
+> Such a utility would be more generic than code specifically in Obnam.
+
+This tool already exists as `systemd-inhibit`. The problem is that it
+needs numerous arguments to be useful (the name of the program, the
+locks to take, a reason for taking the lock, etc.). I don't see this as
+any different than video players taking the XSS lock to inhibit
+screensavers: it's just expected behavior that the screen doesn't lock
+when a video is playing just as suspending in the middle of a backup is
+not something I think anyone would expect (or want barring power-down
+due to low battery or a failing UPS).
+
+--Ben
+
+_______________________________________________
+obnam-dev mailing list
+obnam-dev@obnam.org
+http://listmaster.pepperfish.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/obnam-dev-obnam.org
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+Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:16:33 +0100
+From: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+To: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+Message-ID: <20151220141633.GE2511@exolobe1.liw.fi>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+
+Hi, sorry, it's been a month and a half since this patch.
+
+On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:55:26AM -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 00:49:56 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> > When a backup is happening, the machine should not suspend or otherwise
+> > go down. Add a setting for taking a systemd inhibitor lock.
+> >=20
+> > The code fails safely which allows both the dbus module and the
+> > systemd-logind DBus interface to be optional. In both cases, warnings
+> > are generated.
+>=20
+> So, I'm not really sure how to test this properly within the test suite;
+> the lock is really kind of opaque without running systemd-inhibit to
+> list the active locks. Manual testing shows that obnam is taking the
+> inhibitor lock (with the proper description and all) as seen with
+> `systemd-inhibit --list`. Can anyone without systemd and/or dbus verify
+> the "fails gracefully" bit? I don't have any testing machines with obnam
+> and without those bits.
+
+I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable adding this kind of code to
+Obnam. I think it'd be better off as a separate utility, kind of like
+the flock utility. It could be used like this:
+
+    inhibit-suspend obnam backup
+
+Such a utility would be more generic than code specifically in Obnam.
+
+So I'm afraid I'm going to reject the patch.
+
+--=20
+Schr=F6dinger's backup hypothesis: the condition of any backup is
+undefined until a restore is attempted. -- andrewsh
+
+--SWTRyWv/ijrBap1m
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+Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 16:33:18 +0100
+From: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+To: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+Message-ID: <20151221153318.GR2511@exolobe1.liw.fi>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+Subject: Re: [PATCH] backup: take an inhibitor lock if possible
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+
+On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:22:24AM -0500, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 15:16:33 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> > I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable adding this kind of code to
+> > Obnam. I think it'd be better off as a separate utility, kind of like
+> > the flock utility. It could be used like this:
+> >=20
+> >     inhibit-suspend obnam backup
+> >=20
+> > Such a utility would be more generic than code specifically in Obnam.
+>=20
+> This tool already exists as `systemd-inhibit`. The problem is that it
+> needs numerous arguments to be useful
+
+That just indicates to me that you should write a simpler program,
+perhaps as a wrapper around systemd-inhibit. :)
+
+> it's just expected behavior that the screen doesn't lock when a
+> video is playing just as suspending in the middle of a backup is not
+> something I think anyone would expect (or want barring power-down
+> due to low battery or a failing UPS).
+
+GUI programs such as video players are not generally composable.
+Command line programs such as Obnam are. That's an important
+distinction.
+
+--=20
+Schr=F6dinger's backup hypothesis: the condition of any backup is
+undefined until a restore is attempted. -- andrewsh
+
+--ffBYM5qgR8HH9Mta
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+From: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+To: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
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+
+On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:00:51AM -0500, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> Wait, so let me get this straight:
+>=20
+>   - adding it to obnam is too specific;
+>   - using systemd-inhibit is too generic (needs enough parameters that
+>     manually typing it is annoying);
+>   - so making something *like* obnam-inhibit is the right way;
+>   - but instead of having obnam provide such a thing, everyone has to
+>     make their own?
+>=20
+> Making a full-blown repo for a single script with the content of:
+>=20
+>     #!/bin/sh
+>     exec systemd-inhibit --who=3Dobnam --why=3D"running a backup" obnam "=
+$@"
+>=20
+> seems a little absurd to me.
+
+You said systemd-inhibit is too cumbersome to use. That doesn't look
+particularly cumbersome to me, so I'd be happy to just tell people to
+use systemd-inhibit.
+
+Reading the systemd-inhibit manpage tells me that --who and --why are
+optional, not mandatory, making it quite easy to use, in my opinion.
+
+Problem solves, as far as I can see.
+
+--=20
+Schr=F6dinger's backup hypothesis: the condition of any backup is
+undefined until a restore is attempted. -- andrewsh
+
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+Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:59:32 +0100
+From: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+To: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+Message-ID: <20151221165932.GS2511@exolobe1.liw.fi>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+Subject: Re: [PATCH] backup: take an inhibitor lock if possible
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+
+On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:17:06AM -0500, Ben Boeckel wrote:
+> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 16:33:18 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> > That just indicates to me that you should write a simpler program,
+> > perhaps as a wrapper around systemd-inhibit. :)
+>=20
+> Would this at least be acceptable to include in obnam? obnam-inhibit? It
+> seems silly to have everyone rewrite this thing when it is such an
+> important behavior.
+
+I'd rather it was a separate, generic utility than something named so
+people think it's related to Obnam, sorry. I'd be happy to add
+pointers to it to Obnam documentation, and have the Obnam Debian
+packaging suggest it.
+
+> > GUI programs such as video players are not generally composable.
+> > Command line programs such as Obnam are. That's an important
+> > distinction.
+>=20
+> Sorry, when am I ever going to pipe obnam output to anything other than
+> a log file (or less, sed, etc.)? Does obnam even read stdin?
+
+There are other forms of composability than pipes. For example, the
+flock(1) utility, which creates a lock file while it runs a command,
+and automatically releases it even if it crashes. That's the same
+pattern as I suggest for the inhibition utility.
+
+That said, I expect Obnam to start reading from stdin some day. And
+produce output to stdout. Both for using in pipelines. Examples:
+
+* Have Obnam read the list of files to back up from stdin, fed by,
+  say, find(1).
+
+* Have "obnam export-repository" produce a representation of a backup
+  repository that is independent of the backup storage format, and
+  "obnam import-repository" read such a representation to create a new
+  repository. This would be quite useful for repository conversion.
+
+--=20
+Schr=F6dinger's backup hypothesis: the condition of any backup is
+undefined until a restore is attempted. -- andrewsh
+
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+obnam-dev@obnam.org
+http://listmaster.pepperfish.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/obnam-dev-obnam.org
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new file mode 100644
index 0000000..34a43f0
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+Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:17:06 -0500
+From: Ben Boeckel <mathstuf@gmail.com>
+To: Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi>
+Message-ID: <20151221161706.GD21839@megas.khq.kitware.com>
+References: <20150918050247.GA8128@bronto-burt.dev.benboeckel.net>
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+Subject: Re: [PATCH] backup: take an inhibitor lock if possible
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+
+On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 16:33:18 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
+> That just indicates to me that you should write a simpler program,
+> perhaps as a wrapper around systemd-inhibit. :)
+
+Would this at least be acceptable to include in obnam? obnam-inhibit? It
+seems silly to have everyone rewrite this thing when it is such an
+important behavior.
+
+> GUI programs such as video players are not generally composable.
+> Command line programs such as Obnam are. That's an important
+> distinction.
+
+Sorry, when am I ever going to pipe obnam output to anything other than
+a log file (or less, sed, etc.)? Does obnam even read stdin?
+
+Obnam being composable would, to me, indicate that obnam has some sort
+of backup support when used within a pipeline of the content passing
+through it. Sort of like a record/replay utility (though this would just
+be "cat" with memory…like a filesystem perhaps? :) ). It really feels
+more like a standalone application to me (like newsbeuter, slrn, mpv,
+and other such programs; the persistent configuration file is probably
+what makes me feel that it really is different), but maybe I'm just
+unaware of some obnam capabilities?
+
+--Ben
+
+_______________________________________________
+obnam-dev mailing list
+obnam-dev@obnam.org
+http://listmaster.pepperfish.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/obnam-dev-obnam.org